It's a tale almost as old as marketing itself: B2C marketing is considered fun and cool and witty, B2B marketing is seen as serious and straightforward and (not to pull any punches) boring.
But the way businesses operate, and the way people work within them has changed massively, and the way we market to those people is changing too. That's why we spoke to Drew Neisser, CEO and founder of Renegade Marketing, and founder of CMO Huddles.
Drew refuses to accept the notion that the 'Bs' in B2B have to stand for boring, which is why he shared with us why it's so important for B2B brands to say "bye-bye to boring B2B branding" and start to build themselves on clever applications of emotional connection, humor, and wit.
Originally an episode of our CMO Convo podcast, now available in written form for you to check out below.
- Drew's background and approach to marketing
- Martech - blessing or a burden?
- The importance of a strong B2B brand
- The role of employees in brand building
- Breaking out of "boring"
- Clearing away the clutter
- Becoming essential
- The future
- Shifting your archetype
Drew's background and approach to marketing
Business has changed massively, not just because of the pandemic, but because of other forces that kind of pushed us towards these new ways of working. But before we get down to that, could you introduce yourself to our audience, maybe tell us a bit about your professional background, and why we're speaking to you today?
Well, hopefully I'll say something intelligent. I’m Drew Neisser, founder and CEO of Renegade, also founder of CMO Huddles. I have won a lot of awards for marketing. I've written two books, I've advised dozens of CMOs, and I think I know what I'm talking about when it comes to B2B marketing. That's been a focus for the last four or five years of a 40-year career.
When it comes to marketing, have you developed a philosophy on how you approach it? Is there a way that you think about marketing that you're gonna share with us today?
Oh, totally. The name of the book is Renegade Marketing. That is the philosophy. My observation in the last four years has been that marketing has gotten ridiculously complicated, particularly in B2B. And there's a number of reasons for it. We, in fact, did some research, which was really interesting. First, in 2019, we interviewed about 115 CMOs and asked some questions about complexity and tried to understand the complexity.
It turned out that 90% said,“Yeah, it’s way more complex than it was just 12 to 24 months ago.” By the way, a year later, we filled out exactly the same survey, and the results were very similar, although this was posted at the beginning of COVID. So, the reasons for the complexity had changed a tiny bit. The reasons for the complexity were the data available, the notion of multiple targets, and the number of decision-makers.
Then, when COVID struck, the fact that they no longer had physical events to work with, that changed a lot for B2B marketers, because probably about 50% of the lead flow was coming from physical events.
So, you had this major disruption with COVID. But the changes were happening earlier. The response to the complexity was to build more complex marketing machines. You had these massive grids of messaging: “I’ve got 14 personas, I've got 14 messages. And within those messages, I've got sub-messages.” And nothing stuck. Then, we also read some research from Brent Adamson of Gartner, who talked about the fact that if you have different messages to different targets, you are 2.2 times less likely to get the sale.
That was a big moment, because it was like, “wait, marketing's gotten more complicated, and it's less effective. What are we doing here?” And so the whole purpose of developing the 12 step plan to build unbeatable brands was: Could we build a much simpler framework for marketers to address what it was and what it isn't?
It's a complex challenge, but I think there's a simpler solution, and that's what we outline in the book.
Martech - blessing or a burden?
It's interesting that having access to so much data, and all the different martech solutions, is making life more difficult. You’d imagine they're supposed to make life easier, surely. Why aren't they making life easier for B2B marketers?
So, if we talk about martech, what's happened is that the tech stack has grown. I saw a report yesterday that said the average B2B marketer was spending 19% of their budget on martech. I gagged, because in the book, I talked about keeping it under 10%. Because martech is not marketing, martech is software and technology.
Every time you buy marketing technology, you have to add two to three people, but people don't. If you don't add the people, you're adding technology. There are some cases that are exceptions to that, where they actually do bring more efficiencies.
But a lot of times, any marketing automation technology requires people to interpret, to put in the content, to analyse it. So, what happens is, you have these massive tech stacks, unsupported by people draining the budget, and lots and lots of data. You're still trying to figure out what's happening here.
Again, I think there's ways to radically simplify. I don't have a problem with marketing technology. In fact, I think it's amazing. But I think if every CMO listening to this did an audit, they could probably reduce their stack by 10 to 20%, and have no impact on their marketing effectiveness and have a huge impact on the bottom line. And by the way, they help their employees, because the employees who are working in the marketing automation area are dying, because they didn't hire enough people.
You've got overstressed people who are in high demand. Those people are going to leave if they haven't left already, because they can get a $30,000 raise tomorrow, because they're understaffed against the technology that you bought. When you automate tech, you really start to get some budget back that you can actually use for something like media or content, which is marketing.
Martech isn't marketing. It is a way of helping you facilitate or measure marketing, but it's not marketing.
No, definitely not. You can't have all the bells and whistles of martech without a great brand at the core, a great B2B brand.
The importance of a strong B2B brand
But many people think that B2B marketing is boring compared to B2C.
It's the way it seems to have always been, but there is a shift happening in the last few years. People are recognizing that it’s not B2B marketing, It's B to ‘people who work in our business’ marketing. There isn't a snappier acronym for that just yet, but maybe we can work on that?
Brian Kramer would say it’s H2H, human to human. That's always been what works. I was talking to some CMOs yesterday, and they were talking about those individuals representing their companies. And that was helping their companies.
There're a couple of issues I want to point out. The word ‘brand' is a really tricky word for a startup CMO.
Here's an example. This is a story that came up recently. We were talking about ‘brand.’ One CMO said, “If I go and ask for a $10 million budget to drive revenue, I'll get $10 million. If I say I want a $10 million budget, and I'm gonna spend 1 million on ‘brand,’ I'll get 9 million.” You can't use the word a lot of times because ‘brand' is considered a fluffy logo, colors and so forth. I don't talk about this in the book at all, but I do talk about the importance of building a brand. What you call it when you're negotiating with your VC or your PE firm or your CEO is a whole other story.
That's part of the art of being a good marketer, it’s knowing how to persuade an internal audience. But I want to step back for a second. I think there's a bigger issue here, which is, we need to define what our brand stands for. We need to make it really, really simple, and it's not for the customer that I'm talking about, I'm talking about the employees. This is where, if you ask the question, “where are CMOs going wrong?” First, their target audience is in reverse order: they think, “Prospect. Customer. Employee.”
In the book, we talk about, “Employee. Customer. Prospect.” If your employees don't believe in your brand:
1) there’s going to be a higher turnover, which is a huge issue right now.
2) They’re not going to advocate on your behalf.
3) Customers aren't going to believe you because your employees don't believe you.
So, what is it that's going to make employees believe? Well, that's why we focus on this purpose-driven story statement. Give them something easy to remember, eight words or less that they can use to describe the company that they work for, and tell their grandmother why they're so proud to work at this company.
It's not that complicated. You want to work for a company that you're proud of. In fact, one CMO I know only measures ‘pride’ in employees. They measure whether employees are proud to work for this company, rated on a scale of one to 10, or on a ‘strongly agree, strongly disagree’ scale. If the pride number is high enough, he knows he's doing a good job with marketing. That's the thing, we're talking about marketing to an internal audience.
The role of employees in brand building
It makes so much sense to measure employee satisfaction on 'pride' because, if employees are proud of the brand, they're willing to do more exciting things with that brand as well. If you've got a marketing department, and they're proud of the brand, you can do more exciting marketing that way.
It's the employees who aren't happy with the brands who are just going to crunch numbers and do the day-to-day tasks with minimum effort. People who are proud are going to put 110% in.
This is where the humanizing of a B2B brand is so important. I'll give you an example of a company that we work with called Case Paper. You talk about boring, they work in a paper business.
I mean, it's pretty basic, they deliver paper, which they cut and trim, to printers. And they have a terrific personality, they are the joker archetype, which is unusual in the B2B world. And their purpose-driven story statement is ‘on the case.’ It’s a pun. The idea is that every employee can tell you that the company is reliable, resourceful, and responsive. That's what it means to be on the case, because every month employees are recognized under those three categories for being ‘on the case.’
If employees receive recognition, then they can recognize their printers, who actually have other customers, and those printers are also praised. Then they develop awards for the printers. And so this thing just cascades down, and there's humor in all of it, and they make fun of themselves. They make fun of the world a little bit, and they enjoy this notion of being ‘on the case.’ It's not just being there in the moment, it’s being reliable and responsive.
You can call them and say, “Hey, we want this paper.” And they'll say, "Well, you can save some money, if you got this paper instead.” That's being ‘on the case’, not just delivering on time. This company has enjoyed, in a very difficult time, terrific success as a brand, both from a recruiting and retention standpoint, but also from a customer growth standpoint.
Breaking out of "boring"
That humor is something that people don't always connect with B2B brands. Having a clever idea at the center of the brand and then building out from that. How does a B2B CMO go about doing that, if they're worried that their brand is boring?
In the book, I talked about four traits. The framework for the book is ‘CATS,’ which is an acronym for ‘courageous, artful, thoughtful and scientific,’ and we start with courageous because this is the deal: If you don't have any courage as a CMO, you're probably in the wrong job. You're in the wrong job for a couple of reasons. You have a very short period of time to make a difference in an organization, right? It’s legendary how fast the turnover is.
But if you're going to make a difference, you're going to have to make some changes. And if you're going to make some changes, it's going to take some courage. The change is going to have a big impact on the company. If you don't have courage, you're not making change. As a result, you're not having an impact and you're going to be out the door in 18 months. This is an overly simplistic conversation, but I can stretch it out a little bit and say, “you've got six months to have a quick impact, and you've got 18 months to have a big impact.” They’re slightly different.
In the book, we talked about that ‘quick success'. You can find a quick win. Any good marketer can look at a marketing plan and say, “If we did this, instead of that, we could get a quick win.” Because you have to build credibility with the C suite. But once you build credibility with the C suite, then you can get them to see how marketing can be a huge factor for this company. That starts with having the courage to build a distinct brand.
Now, I want to go back to the first chapter: Clear away the clutter. Here's the problem. CMO takes the job, the CEO says, “Oh my God, these are all the things that we need you to do.” The CFO says, “Oh, my God, you get two cents instead of 20 cents to do what you want to do.”
The Head of Sales says, “I need 1000 leads tomorrow." The HR person says, “Do you mind doing the corporate comms? Because we're not very good at communicating to employees.”
A great CMO clears away the clutter. They have this ability to identify top priorities based on the strategic plan of the organization. “These are my priorities for the next quarters, six months, nine months.” If it's not on that list, they're saying no. That takes courage.
This has gotten worse during COVID. We're working at home, we have more hours. Those hours didn't go to exercise. Those hours didn't go to expanding your brain. They went to work. You're just answering emails from seven in the morning until ten at night. The result is: you haven't cleared away that clutter.
This chapter gives you permission to say no, but you're doing it because you have a clear strategic plan, which you have an agreement with the C suite on. You've got agreement on the metrics that matter. And you're going forward with a primitively simple, but big picture thing.
You have to drive revenue, there's no doubt you have to drive revenue. But how? You're going to drive revenue with some demand programs and a bigger brand idea than you currently have. Well, you're gonna have to clear away the clutter to do that.
Clearing away the clutter
Clearing away the clutter can apply to how a lot of B2B brands, particularly the startup space, are currently marketing themselves. They tend to market around features rather than the actual value of the product. How does a B2B CMO go about selling that idea? How do they get everyone else on board with that kind of messaging?
This is the hard part of being a CMO. You're dependent on a lot of things, right? You're dependent on the product. People have a great product that has a clear promise baked in.
Ideally, you're dependent on the CFO, who believes enough in marketing to give you a budget, as opposed to expecting you to just do magic with social media, right?
That's why I talk about the need for artfulness, because you need to be an artful communicator internally and externally. So, I think the answer to this question is, It's not easy. But you need to have a firm agreement with the C suite on what we're trying to do, It's as simple as that. What can you do to make the customer's life easier? This is the problem with most communications. They start with, “what is the message that I want to say?” Whereas what we should be saying is, “How can I help someone today? What can I do for them?”
It's focusing on outward as opposed to inward. This is 90% of the problem. You’ve got a tech group who've got all these features in it, and you’ve got CEOs putting on pressure to make your numbers grow. It doesn't work like that. Nobody just buys because you tell them there are great features. They buy because they figured out this is going to help them in their lives and work in some capacity.
We call this ‘selling a service.’ What can you do to help your customers? What can you do, full stop. And it may not even be anything to do with your product or service.
Supposedly it goes back to what you're saying about employee pride as well. Employees are gonna have pride in how they're helping their customers more than all the bells and whistles that they're selling to people.
It's all about how you're actually helping the people on the far end of your marketing. It's all about what you are getting to the customer at the end, not the components of what you're giving to the customer. You're getting peace of mind, you're given the ability to do work better. And that kind of messaging is always gonna be more important.
I just laugh because, when COVID began, I knew several CMOs who brilliantly called every single customer, and said, “How are you guys doing? How's your cash flow? What can we do? How can we help you?” What they discovered was that, in some cases, customers were really hurting. They said they didn’t have to pay us for the next two months, but we'll put it on the back end, and they extended the contract.
Or they found there's an aspect of the product that customers aren’t using that would help you in this situation. Suddenly, empathy became a very important word for all the CMOs, both internally and externally. Obviously, there were CMOs who were inherently empathetic. Suddenly every CMO realized, “I got to pay attention to this, this is bad. I've got employees who are either sick or worried about being sick. I've got customers who don't know where their business is going.” I had one CMO early on and the pandemic said, “the less we sold, the more we sold.” All they were doing was trying to help. It was amazing.
I think it’s very hard to convince rational scientific engineers of that mindset. It's very hard to convince them that this sort of emotional connection that you make with a customer is what's not only going to increase the likelihood of sale, but it's going to accelerate flow. It's going to change a lot of things.
Now, I will say one other thing that the pandemic brought to life that I think is so interesting. At the very beginning of the pandemic, businesses that were doing well were considered essential businesses, right? I mean, hospitals were essential business, doctors were essential business. But so was everything in the cloud. Every business that was in the cloud was an essential business. Zoom was an essential business, we needed to communicate.
But there were many others. And if you weren't essential, you met this person called the CFO. It was the CFO who said that they weren't spending money on anything unless you can prove that it's essential to keep the business operating. That notion of essentialism is such an interesting idea, because if you ask customers how the business is essential, or what are we doing right now that makes us essential, It's a very different conversation.
It instills more belief in the product. If you're actually essential to the day-to-day machinations of another person's job, you're gonna have more pride in doing it.
It’s important, right? What companies started to think about was, “oh, well we are not essential. We're a nice-to-have, not a must-have. In order to be essential, they needed to be able to prove an ROI. That's because everybody's trying to figure out how they’re going to make more money because the business might slow down. There was a big concern about that. They started to change the product or the pricing so that they could have a faster ROI.
They were looking at lighter versions of the product to make it easier for a customer to get started. This is product-led marketing, this notion of a freemium, did very, very well, because there's no risk upfront, you took away the barrier. If you're not essential, you better be free. Those companies did very well because that sounds like a good price to get started.
There's also something I would argue about freemium that is part of this sell-through service. If you’re giving something away with all of your marketing, and that's where content fits in, that is a value. You have a chance of building a relationship, you've just cut all the barriers, right?
There's no risk for me to try except for my time. As long as I believe that, it's going to be worth my time to try this free product. You've made life a lot easier, you've given something in order to get the customers' time and attention. Now, of course, it better be good.
If something is essential to your day-to-day working life as well, you're going to build an emotional connection to that. If we use Slack, because we're all remote working, that’s how we keep in touch.
Losing Slack can mean losing a connection to all your co-workers, all the people that you communicate with on a daily basis. That avenue of connection to Slack is a central part of many people's lives. Many people do have an emotional connection to Slack. And it's those kinds of products that are building great B2B brands.
Slack boomed during COVID. Suddenly everybody realized that this is an essential thing, as opposed to just for the tech guys. It became the way businesses operate. So yeah, you're right. That's a good observation, and Slack is a freemium product.
Do you think maybe this shift towards human-focused B2B marketing is only going to get more intense? 54% of Gen Z have said they aspire to entrepreneurship, they want to run their own businesses. They're gonna require very different types of marketing than traditional.
Building those kinds of emotional connections with customers and delivering value to people who might not be tech-savvy, and might not understand the features, it's only become more and more important as we move into this Gen Z dominated workspace. How can CMOs prepare for that? How can B2B CMOs be ready for that shift?
So, here's an interesting thing. There's generational change, and then there's the revert to the mean. And so every generation is coming through, and it’s announced as being incredibly different. Twenty years later, they're looking back at the next generation thinking they're incredibly different. But there is some reversion to the mean.
I think it is sometimes a mistake for a brand to say they want to appeal to this particular group, as opposed to saying, “ how do we help a target?” There's a couple of differences here. If you are recruiting these individuals, then there is no doubt you need to have their mindset and you need to be where they are.I don't think there's any doubt about that. Does every B2B brand need to be on Tik Tok, though?
I don't have an answer to that. But I think that there's probably a good chance that they do need to be if that's where they're recruiting pool is going to come from, even if their customer pool isn't going to come from there. I don't have an answer to what you're talking about there. I'm not a Gen Z expert. What I am an expert on is how B2B brands are built. It's relatively simple in that you start with a distinctive promise, a commitment to the marketplace. You then figure out ways of communicating that promise in very clever ways against employees, customers and prospects.
You put it on one page. One plan, one page. You say, “I'm going to do six things for employees that build this idea, and all of them are designed to be of value to those individuals.” Then I know you're in safe territory, regardless of the channel. I don't think channels are interested in that. I know some B2B brands that completely stopped marketing and digital completely. Other than their website, they put it all outdoors and on radio.
Wow. That's impressive. So, with digital marketing being such a huge focus for many brands, how did they do that?
In truth, it's very hard to ignore billboards. And if you buy the right ones, and you're targeting Silicon Valley, and you buy something, a billboard on 101, which is going through Silicon Valley to San Francisco, everybody's gonna see those. And they might even talk about it. They might even share it on social media, if it's clever enough. Media is one of those things that I think you experiment with, but don't make assumptions in terms of what's going to work and what isn't. That's why I don't prescribe a particular media approach.
I do think you can test and learn. A number of brands I know have reached a certain stage where they can't increase awareness or effectiveness anymore on digital. They go on television, they spend some money and their digital presence starts to improve. You know that these are things that a lot of folks under 30 forget: these other channels can work, even a B2B. I think there aren't formulas when it comes to media, but there are formulas when it comes to ‘brand.’
And you can get that right. And you can do it in a way where employees, customers, prospects start to feel really good about the company. I want to do business with these guys, because I like them. They've helped me. They can be funny, but not every brand can be funny. That's a hard role.
Although I think there's room for a funny brand in every category, I don't care what it is. I mean, there's room for a humorous bank, there's room for a humorous accountant, there's room for a humorous lawyer, but very few have the ‘chutzpah,’ as they say in Yiddish, to do that.
In the book, I talk about archetypes. So many brands want to be the ‘hero' brand. That's a mistake. You're not the hero. You're the sidekick. You're Obi Wan Kenobi, but even heroes and sidekicks are very crowded in B2B. If you look at most B2B categories, you will find that they're either heroes or wise sages, but there's room for 10 Other archetypes. You could be the ‘explorer' brand, you could be the Disney magic brand.
This is where part of the brand understanding will help the marketer, whether or not you can educate your CEO or CFO or not. It gives you language. Finding your archetype will give you language, and that can make it easier. Again, if you have these eight words that define the brand and set a purpose, and then you put an archetype underneath it, you've simplified your approach so radically that then you go, “Okay, I know who we are, I know how we speak. Now we just have to figure out how we help our customers”.
Shifting your archetype
When it comes to the archetype, though, how important is the existing corporate culture? What if your marketing team is very good at a very, very serious style of marketing and you decide now we need to be the joker? What if your marketing team isn’t funny?
Well, with Case Paper, the CMO is a humorous individual. He's hired a bunch of freelance writers who are improv people to sort of provide the right voice to the brand. And those people struggled to have work, so they're happy to have it. Everybody's winning on that formula. You bring up an interesting question about culture and culture change. We're at a really interesting time with culture. I don't talk about this in the book, but I've seen it now.
What is culture when you don't have an office? And you're seeing that in the great resignation, particularly people who started in COVID, they're not connected to the company because they haven't physically been there. I think this is where marketing and the head of HR have to come together and talk about where brand and culture intersect.
How do we make sure we do this on a virtual basis? How do you build culture? It's really hard. I will say it's hard, but you have to pay attention to it. The whole notion of culture as pervasive has changed a little bit. It used to be, “we're going to hire the people who fit the culture.” Now, it’s, “we're hiring people who can enhance and expand the culture.” It’s this whole notion of neurodiversity, and that we want a kind of diversity of thinking.
So, culture is a work in progress. Here's a really easy tip, the first thing I recommend a CMO do on day one on the job is field an employee survey. I list the points of what you should ask in the book.
There's the survey right there, put in a Survey Monkey the first day and you do two things: One, you're saying I care about what you think; I want your opinion, and two, you're getting really important information, because there's an open-ended question for words to describe the brand. You really hear what employees think of the brand. And that's important, because if you're going to try to shift it, you need to know where they are. This is something a lot of CMOs don't do.
They say, “Oh, well, our HR is doing employee surveys, why should I do that?” No, you need to take ownership of that, because it's a goldmine. And if you know where they are right now, that may be beautiful, and it may be able to inform you where you want to go, or you're going to have to change it. In which case, we can devise a program.
If we weren't funny, and we want to be funny, then we need a whole set of programs. And there are companies where humor is really important to them. They have humor training programs, how to be funny. As part of their culture, they have stand-up class, they have improv class, and it's part of the culture.
So, if you're going to go there, that's what you do. And you make that part of the value of the company. Again, I don't want to make this complicated, we try to keep it simple. For Employees, customers, prospects, and everything. If we start on day one, we serve employees, and we get that information, and then we decide we need to be somewhere else, then we can figure out how to get there.
You come up with the destination first, and then the CMO’s job is to roadmap it. Is that what you're saying?
Yeah. You have to be grounded.
Yeah, of course, because it's the employees that are gonna help you build the brand. Getting the employees engaged with that process on day one is going to make that process easier in the long run. Surely, in the same way, getting them engaged with the brand motivates them, getting them engaged with the process of building a brand or potentially rebranding gets them engaged with that more effectively as well?
Yeah, and I want to give some thoughts here on this because this is driving me crazy. I see new CMOs now feeling like they need to change the brand, which often means a logo. Sometimes, it’s even a re-naming and a website redo. We got to fix all that. My advice in the book is, you're wasting your time. The only reason to change the logo is because the company has grown out of it from a product and service standpoint.
It no longer represents the brand. I want to change the way you think about the brand, right? Most of the time when a CMO comes into the job, there's not radical news. Yeah, if you had a merger where you have five companies coming together, or suddenly the software went from a single service product to a platform, that's a radical change. Fine, change the logo. That is not the case most of the time.
What they do is, they spend 6 to 12 months changing the brand and the logo and the colors, and they're just playing into the perception that marketing is fluffy. So what you want to do is you want to make sure that what you're focusing on is really important to the business. In terms of the CEO and the CFO, they care about revenue, they don't care about marketing. You need to be thinking about how to improve the brand. But in order to improve the brand, you probably need to bring purpose to this organization.
In order to do that, I need to know that I can drive revenue first. It's unfortunate that this is the reality. But it is the reality, if you want to have an extended tenure as a CMO, you have to first recognize that revenue is how you're going to be measured. You have to partner with your CRO and your CFO to figure out how marketing impacts revenue. You have to know what the pipeline is right now, today. If you can't give a number, what marketing's contribution is to pipeline or opportunities, you have a problem.
So, you’ve got to get there. As you're doing your employee survey, you’re getting the information about what the perceptions of the brand are internally. Then, you're doing your customer survey for the same reason. You've got to look at where you are in your pipeline and figure out how you’re going to measure this. How are we going to fix it? We’ve got this parallel track, one is long and one is short term. Again, this is why this job is so hard and why I have so much empathy for CMOs. Where do you start?
There are so many problems to fix. I think what the book and all the interviews that I've done over the last 10 years show, is that if you can create a simple framework. You can solve these problems. If you allow yourself to get stretched in a million directions, you can’t.
Wise words. Anyone in life should be applying that kind of system to help them tackle problems, whether it's in marketing or in your personal life.
At the end of chapter one, I have something called the ‘Clear away the clutter’ pledge. And it's five points. And I'm just gonna read these points because I think we can do this together. Let's do it. Number one, I will focus relentlessly on a handful of strategic priorities. You got those, I got those. I will have the courage to say no to distractions. That's a tough one.
I will delegate everything except the things only I can do that will move the organization forward. I should have put that number one for CMOs. There's a lot of things that CMOs could do to delegate that they're not doing. I won't add to my to-do list without taking something off of it. And then I will block off 30 minutes a day for thinking big. That's ‘the clear away the clutter’ pledge.
We like that! Can you remind our readers of the title of your book, where it's available?
Yes. So it's Renegade Marketing: 12 steps to building unbeatable B2B brands, available on Amazon and paperback ebooks and audio.
Awesome. So, we've kind of given an overview of some of the information you can find in there. I'm sure there's a lot more to be found. I certainly need to check it out. Thank you very much for joining us, Drew. We covered a whole bunch of stuff that I'm sure is gonna be valuable to our audience.
My pleasure. Thank you. And thank you for what you're doing. It's so important.
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